Van Nicholas Astraeus
Hydroformed, seamless ti tubing offers stunning aesthetic impact
Posted: 16 September 2008
by Richard Hallett
Discuss this story
Superlative welding? Really? H-Bridge? WhoopDeWoo! Chris King Headset? Yes but you have to specify (and pay for) it.
Posted: 25/09/2008 12:14
Come on Richard, since when did hydro-forming take a frame "to a new level of performance"? We really expect you to rise above the marketing hype. It makes me wonder why you would write such drivel . . . .
Fair comment but for the fact that I note the claims as they are made by Van Nicholas:
'the tube shapes are claimed to offer greatly enhanced frame stiffness without compromising on the supple ride quality for which titanium cycle frames are renowned; the frame also has a unique 'H' shaped chainstay bridge also designed to increase stiffness in this critical area. I don't see why repetition of these claims should not form part of what is simply a show report. When we get hold of an Astraeus to test we will attempt to ascertain whether they add up. Hydroforming itself is merely a means of tube manipulation. However, it does mean that seamless tubing can be given complex shapes that would otherwise be possible only with seamed tubing ie. tubing that starts as a flat sheet and is welded along the join once bent to a tubular shape. Seamless is considered superior partly because it saves the weight of the weld, partly because the sudden change of tube wall cross section and local stiffness can concentrate stresses to the disadvantage of the tube's integrity and partly because the area immediately around the weld is likely to be weaker than the same area without a seam. Hard to say without seeing the test results, but it is at least plausible that the 'H' bridge should enhance the stiffness of the chainstays. Unless you believe the chaps at Delft Uni don't know what they are doing.
Posted: 29/09/2008 16:49
Hmmm.... I've not seen the drawings etc, but hydroformed ti will offer a significant performance benefit in terms of stiffness to weight. At Sunday, we've been playing with some hydro formed ti ourselves (yes, its been around in alu for some time, but i think i'd have to admit Van Nich have beaten us to the first in hydro formed ti production. Iain is going to be really cross as we've got some exciting 'consequences' from hydro formed ti... Greg www.sundaybicycles.co.uk
Posted: 30/09/2008 16:53
While we are all aware of manufactures unlikely marketing claims I would like to make a couple of comments. Firstly, as you have all pointed out, Richard is a first rate journalist with excellent technical understanding. What is he will no doubt of identified is that hydroformning has a potential to alter and improve the structure of the 3Al 2.5V titanium over “conventional” seamlessly drawn tubing. Emphasis on the seamlessly drawn tubing should be made as this was the last time a technique was used to improve the structure of the material via processing methods. Seamless tubing has advantages in terms of its structure over and above the absence of welded “seam” construction (due to the way the material is worked when it is formed into tubes). In a similar way, hydroforming of 3al 2.5 could well offer a similar step change in improvements. How this will transpose to ride feel and performance is unknown, but no doubt the roadcyclinguk team will let you all know following some road tests. I suspect it is due to Richards understanding of these issues that has made him (justifiably) excited about the new tubing. I know we are...... Your correct in suggesting that “hype” is somewhat inevitable. The claims are very generic and nothing we haven’t heard before regarding the latest “must have” technology. That said, from the Lab data I’ve got on our hydroformed stuff i share Richards excitement and enthusiasm. Although as an engineer and scientist these things turn me on more than most but the potential benefits should not be understated.... Iain www.sundaybicycles.co.uk
Posted: 04/10/2008 12:09
Funny but when I clicked on the thread link at the bottom of the article the last thing I was expecting was a debate about hyperbole in bicycle journalism.  Go on, how much does it weigh then? I can't find it on the website and if they are coy about its mass it's probably so much more than something carbon I'll have the perfect excuse not to buy one. The stiffer but still comfortable line always makes me smile; the first time I read it was relating to a Cannondale R500 which must be one of the most miserably uncomfortable bikes I've had the misfortune to sit on.
Posted: 04/10/2008 15:38
1490g for a 56cm according to their website (in the geometry bit). Bit of a shame after all the genuine innovation that the first question people ask is its weight !
Posted: 04/10/2008 15:47
Well it's important. That's 500gm more than my current frame which equates to about 25 seconds up my local hill. Even this state-of-the-art ti frame still weighs 50% more than carbon frames that are cheap as chips and I'd like to bet a good deal stiffer when Le Cycle starts bending them. It's a touring frame! 
Posted: 04/10/2008 15:57
Some bloke placed 3rd or 4th in the Dutch road champ on the prototype. I must say I thought I'd taken care to point out both in the article and on subsequent posts that I was reporting the claims as made by the constructor. These are not necessarily 'hype', although it is easy to assume they are. Manufacturers try new things in the hope of finding an improvement; sometimes they do, or we'd all be riding around on boneshakers or, if Michaux hadn't had the bright idea of fitting pedals to the front wheel, Draisennes. Let's see how the bike goes, eh?
Posted: 04/10/2008 18:29
It's 99.9% down to the rider who wins anyhow (statistics from an acquaintance on BM). Sean Kelly used to win sprints on a Vitus elastic band. If there is a market for this kind of bike it's the sportive rider that has more pounds than kms in the legs. The bling, marketing blurb and exclusivity will count as much any potential comfort or performance gains to them.
Posted: 07/10/2008 10:19
If there is a market for this kind of bike it's the sportive rider that has more pounds than kms in the legs. The bling, marketing blurb and exclusivity will count as much any potential comfort or performance gains to them.
nice negative viewpoint there john
Posted: 07/10/2008 10:50
It's 99.9% down to the rider who wins anyhow (statistics from an acquaintance on BM). Sean Kelly used to win sprints on a Vitus elastic band. If there is a market for this kind of bike it's the sportive rider that has more pounds than kms in the legs. The bling, marketing blurb and exclusivity will count as much any potential comfort or performance gains to them.
So, not only does any extra weight in a bike count for nothing anyway, but there are potential performance gains to be had...
I'm slightly mystified by some of the reasoning on this thread. If I had put up a load of pics of the Astraeus without bothering to explain why the designers thought it worth hydroforming their tubes into the shapes used, I would have failed to provide important and relevant information. Birillo, I appreciate the kind references to my 'reputation' in your posts. Do you not think I apply a questioning approach when offered claims such as those made by Van Nicholas? IMO they are worth consideration. I have explained with the help of Iain Roche the benefits of using seamless tubes and the advantages of hydroforming in terms of what it allows the designer to do. No hype there. Do funny tube profiles do anything? Yes; they offer an alternative to a round section, which has the same mechanical properties in every plane. Ovalising modifies the 'second moment of area' of the tube section to increase bending stiffness and strength in the required plane, while the reduction in cross-section area reduces torsional stiffness since torsional stiffness scales roughly as the square of tube cross-section area. Since bending stiffness scales as the cube of diameter, increasing tube diameter rapidly provides a surplus of torsional over bending stiffness that can safely be reduced by going to a non-circular section with commensurately enhanced bending stiffness on the desired plane. Incidentally, Ridley found the Damocles, which has similarly-shaped carbon tubes, to be much stiffer than expected.
Posted: 07/10/2008 11:32
I have no issues with hyperbole or the validity of the claims made Richard. It's more a case of who is going to hand over that much cash to buy one. If you're a racer that actually pays for his own kit there are objectively faster alternatives for much less especially if the road goes uphill. I own a bike in Columbus Max, a couple of Look bikes with profiled tubes and a TCR that has carbon sections that look very much like the titanium ones of the Astraeus. There are no doubt advantages to be had from shaping, profiling and butting tubes and Astraeus no doubt do it very well. I will also admit to a general suspicion of things titanium as the ones I've ridden (Look and Lightspeed amongt them) haven't impressed. I even got off the Look to check the rear tyre was correctly inflated. :-/
Posted: 07/10/2008 14:22
Fair comments, John. There is no question that titanium ultimately can't be made into as light a frame as carbon or even aluminium. It also has a reputation for flexiblity that the first Ti bike I rode, a 'Raleigh' of some sort, was only ever going to enhance. It does, however, have a lot going for it once you get way from minimal weight and there are a lot of riders out there looking for a corrosion-proof frame with excellent ride comfort and exceptional longevity. Now that companys like Van Nicholas, Enigma and Sunday Bicycles have driven the price down it is even affordable...
Posted: 07/10/2008 14:31
What a silly question, "Who is going to hand over that much case to buy one?" Welcome to business, most companies who produce such products are companies doing well, that have enough money to produce such a product, market such a product and clearly make a healthy profit. It's only those who aren't as clever as those involved in the business who would ask such a question. Who would buy Rapha? Many. Who would buy Lightweights? Many.
Posted: 07/10/2008 14:45
So perhaps we come back to my "touring bike" dig and and as Dave noted my dig at a certain sub group of cyclists that is expanding rapidly: the affluent kit-obsessed sportive rider. There used to be a few hundred of us out on local sportives and no there are up to 10 000. The bikes are transported to events in big 4x4s, look-at-me BMWs and I've even seen bikes on the back of a Porche Boxter. The sportive rider is image conscious and many have money to burn or so it would seem. Don't get me wrong these people are on bikes and I'll pleased to see it. Taking a few of these riders in local clubs they simply by what is conspicuously "the best". Colnago C-something with Record and seriously expensive wheels (that are seriously too light and flexible). They follow "Le Cycle" and fashion with a passion jumping from one unsuitable ride to the next. This Van Nicolas might actually be what they're looking for having been rattled to bits on their first carbon monocoque, found that the back end of a tarmac SL is rather whippy with their 100kg on it and broken a couple of Scandium things. Am I being negative or simply observant when I say this bike will be bought by the image conscious but not very fit middle manager that is really cycle touring but would never admit it even to himself?
Posted: 07/10/2008 14:58
Congratulations, John - you are the first to identify a new sub-group of sportive participants: the affluent kit-obsessed sportive rider Presumably poverty-stricken sportive riders on clapped out old French ironmongery are more to your taste? There is a strong whiff of resentment in your reference to having 10,000 sportive riders where there used to be just you and a few hundred locals... There is, by the way, nothing new about the phenomenon of the kit-obsessed cyclist. South east England has been full of them since I began cycling. Ride a Kent League or Crystal Palace crit 25 years ago and you couldn't drop out of the back of the bunch for fully-spammed-up, Duegi shoe-wearing Italophiles on SABAs, Colnagos etc. Am I being negative or simply observant when I say this bike will be bought by the image conscious but not very fit middle manager that is really cycle touring but would never admit it even to himself? Sportives are not cycle touring as I know it. Just ask DA...
Posted: 07/10/2008 15:16
I'm pleased they're out on Bikes Adam. I do talk to them Adam which is as you very informative. No more or less interesting tha anyone else on a bike but perhaps more indicative of the contradictions in wider society. I've often engaged my stereotypical rider (who obviously doesn't exist) in conversation and it's very revealing. For example, I haven't found one that has a solar hot water heater whereas I know a few people that have but ride much more modest bicycles. The solar hot water heater does nothing for your image, a Colnago does. Cycling is of course a green activity, or is it? In the seventies oil crisis the RAC rally was banned. However, the Sunday football fixtures were allowed to continue as usual despite being responsible for more petrol consumption than the RAC rally (due to spectator miles driven). So, the Colnago, BMW sportive rider is out there for a reason which goes beyond personal satisfaction. It's a macho thing, being seen and somehow using it to raise they're self-esteem and presumably thinking it will also make they more sexy, better in bed and live longer, healthier - which it will of course. I've got some DIY to do but will try to look in later to see if this provokes any comments or thoughts.
Posted: 07/10/2008 15:31
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